Discussion:
FLAC vs. Apple Lossles Audio Quality through Squeeze Box
babi8987
2012-04-12 11:41:41 UTC
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I am considering reworking my music library, for my squeeze box, to be
lossless i-tunes. but before I do this work, I would like to know if
there is any audio quality differences that I might be able to hear
between the two file formats.

I currently run my squeeze box through a rotel reciever with b&w m1
speakers.

thanks,

steve


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aubuti
2012-04-12 12:53:08 UTC
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I'll start with the obvious and observe that lossless is lossless, so
there should not be any difference in audio quality. You don't mention
which SB model(s) you have, and I don't follow Apple lossless
developments closely, but if I remember correctly it is recommended that
Touch users do the decoding on the server, because the Touch's
implementation is "flaky".


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babi8987
2012-04-12 19:12:39 UTC
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Post by aubuti
I'll start with the obvious and observe that lossless is lossless, so
there should not be any difference in audio quality. You don't mention
which SB model(s) you have, and I don't follow Apple lossless
developments closely, but if I remember correctly it is recommended that
Touch users do the decoding on the server, because the Touch's
implementation is "flaky".
I use a squeeze box three. I have had it for about six years now.


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aubuti
2012-04-12 20:00:42 UTC
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The SB3 doesn't decode Apple lossless, so you'll definitely be doing the
transcoding on the server, because it needs to send the SB3 something it
can understand (eg, FLAC, WAV, AIFF). As long as your server is up to
the task you should be fine. And I expect that anything except an
underpowered NAS, plug computer, or ancient pc would be able to
transcode comfortably.


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prabbit
2012-04-20 19:42:39 UTC
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I converted my flac files to Apple Lossless (m4a) for what appears to be
the same reason as you (one set of files rather than two). I also have
two SB3s (and a Boom). Here's what I've noticed. To my ears on my
speakers (Audio Engine 5s) I do not hear a difference. Technically, what
I see happening is that a ~1000 kbps m4a file is transcoded on the
server (Mac Mini) to a ~750 kbps flac file and sent to the SB3. So,
unless you have extremely discriminating ears, I think you'll be fine.
Make sure to back up your files before starting just in case, but it's
lossless to lossless so it shouldn't be a problem.


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Mnyb
2012-04-20 19:58:42 UTC
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Post by prabbit
I converted my flac files to Apple Lossless (m4a) for what appears to be
the same reason as you (one set of files rather than two). I also have
two SB3s (and a Boom). Here's what I've noticed. To my ears on my
speakers (Audio Engine 5s) I do not hear a difference. Technically, what
I see happening is that a ~1000 kbps m4a file is transcoded on the
server (Mac Mini) to a ~750 kbps flac file and sent to the SB3. So,
unless you have extremely discriminating ears, I think you'll be fine.
Make sure to back up your files before starting just in case, but it's
lossless to lossless so it shouldn't be a problem.
Note that those rates presented by LMS is bogus server does not know the
real rate (old issue, it says the same about24bit files for example ) ,
the conversion is truly lossles and rate can be different between
different lossles formats wihtout any difference in the finally decoded
stream , they would both be bitperfect and identical at the squeezebox
.

I do prefer to use player native formats , on the type of medium sized
small server i prefer it is normally not an issue but it does use more
server resources to transcode .
If one has multiple players and a large familly I begin to see a problem
if the server should provide lot of transcoded streams in parallel .


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mobileadam
2012-06-11 10:07:19 UTC
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This is interesting. I'm upgrading my home server and was planning to
re-rip everything into Apple Lossless as iTunes is bearable for me.
However I stream to multiple players (boom, SBR, Radio) and at least two
are synced at any one time. Without knowing anything about native
formats etc would FLAC files on the server be a better solution? I need
to try and find out what the players can handle I guess 'natively'??? I
hate it when the music stops because the server / network is choking.

Thanks

Adam


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aubuti
2012-06-11 10:35:15 UTC
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The sound quality of Apple Lossless and FLAC will be the same, so the
choice depends a lot on which "ecosystem" is more important for your
purposes. If you are heavily invested in SBs, then FLAC is the way to go
because Squeezeboxes play FLAC natively. If support for Apple products
is important to you (AirPlay, iPods, etc) then you're better off with
Apple Lossless. Personally, my library is mostly FLAC, but I keep a
parallel lossy copy in MP3 format for use on iPod, laptop, and other
mobile devices because on those I can easily live with the lower
fidelity of MP3.

If you have several SBs and your comment on iTunes is that it is
"bearable", then my reaction is why bother with Apple Lossless at all?
There are ripping and management tools that support FLAC that you are
likely to find much better than "bearable" (eg, dBpoweramp, Winamp,
foobar2000, Media Monkey, and many others). So why go with Apple
Lossless.

If your server is capable, there is nothing wrong with transcoding to
Apple Lossless and sending to multiple players. But if the server
doesn't have enough processing power then you can run into problems with
dropouts as the server cannot transcode fast enough to send a steady
stream.

As for what SBs play natively, this chart from the wiki has a good
listing: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Hardware_comparison It
may not answer all your questions, but it's a good start.


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Mnyb
2012-06-11 13:18:00 UTC
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If they are synced it is only one transcoding process as the server
sends the same stream to both players


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aubuti
2012-06-11 14:09:10 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
If they are synced it is only one transcoding process as the server
sends the same stream to both players
Correct, yet still some low-end server hardware is not up to performing
that task reliably.


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Mnyb
2012-06-11 15:20:58 UTC
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Post by aubuti
Correct, yet still some low-end server hardware is not up to performing
that task reliably.
yep I would consider 1core x86 some thing >1,2 gHz rock bottom .

But the most demanding transcoders in my experience is the ones for
lossy formats like lame ? so a good server is also of interest if you
want some of the more obscure web radio channels on old players


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Fozzy
2012-06-11 22:44:38 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
yep I would consider 1core x86 some thing >1,2 gHz rock bottom .
But the most demanding transcoders in my experience is the ones for
lossy formats like lame ? so a good server is also of interest if you
want some of the more obscure web radio channels on old players
Am I right in thinking MP3 is one of those formats that requires
significantly more CPU power to encode than to decode? If so you could
always avoid transcoding into it.


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Mnyb
2012-06-12 05:08:16 UTC
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Post by Fozzy
Am I right in thinking MP3 is one of those formats that requires
significantly more CPU power to encode than to decode? If so you could
always avoid transcoding into it.
Yes that what i do :)

but LMS has a bitrate limiter that uses LAME mp3 , it uses more cpu than
SoX utility to transcode flac wav and hirez .

And it has quality settings , if you use a high quality setting for lame
and bitrate limiting you will see a lot of cpu usage and the cpu must
have fpu for it to work .

Some older x86 cpus has not so great fpu implementations and this shows
in such case ARM just can't use LAME .

I noticed this in the pre spotify age when I used bitrate limiting to
stream music to softsqueeze when staying at hotels or similar locations
away from home with limited bandwith

There is an alternative shine encoder described in the wiki .

There are other use for the bitrate limiter it is actually very usefull
if a wifi player has not so great reception or if you use in the garden
far away from the AP etc.


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simes_pep
2012-06-18 14:24:17 UTC
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Post by aubuti
The sound quality of Apple Lossless and FLAC will be the same, so the
choice depends a lot on which "ecosystem" is more important for your
purposes. If you are heavily invested in SBs, then FLAC is the way to go
because Squeezeboxes play FLAC natively. If support for Apple products
is important to you (AirPlay, iPods, etc) then you're better off with
Apple Lossless. Personally, my library is mostly FLAC, but I keep a
parallel lossy copy in MP3 format for use on iPod, laptop, and other
mobile devices because on those I can easily live with the lower
fidelity of MP3.
If you have several SBs and your comment on iTunes is that it is
"bearable", then my reaction is why bother with Apple Lossless at all?
There are ripping and management tools that support FLAC that you are
likely to find much better than "bearable" (eg, dBpoweramp, Winamp,
foobar2000, Media Monkey, and many others). So why go with Apple
Lossless.
If your server is capable, there is nothing wrong with transcoding to
Apple Lossless and sending to multiple players. But if the server
doesn't have enough processing power then you can run into problems with
dropouts as the server cannot transcode fast enough to send a steady
stream.
As for what SBs play natively, this chart from the wiki has a good
listing: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Hardware_comparison It
may not answer all your questions, but it's a good start.
Hi,

I wonder if I can get an answer within this thread.

I have an SB3 served by a LMS library running on ReadyNAS Duo - all
works fine including 24/48 files streamed wirelessly.

However to continue to support my Apple devices (a number of iPhones,
iPods, etc) I maintain files in a FLAC only directory and an Tunes
library. Some files are present in both FLAC and ALAC but not all (ACC
and mp3 are only present in the iTunes library).
Is there a way of telling LMS to only select the FLAC version if a
duplicate is present?

Currently for a number of Albums I get duplicate track listing within
the same album, so you just play the album you get each track played
twice (FLAC then ALAC version), which is quite annoying.

I want to continue giving the SB3 the FLAC version if present, given its
native support.

Thanks,
Simon.


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garym
2012-06-18 14:47:59 UTC
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Post by simes_pep
Hi,
I wonder if I can get an answer within this thread.
I have an SB3 served by a LMS library running on ReadyNAS Duo - all
works fine including 24/48 files streamed wirelessly.
However to continue to support my Apple devices (a number of iPhones,
iPods, etc) I maintain files in a FLAC only directory and an Tunes
library. Some files are present in both FLAC and ALAC but not all (ACC
and mp3 are only present in the iTunes library).
Is there a way of telling LMS to only select the FLAC version if a
duplicate is present?
Currently for a number of Albums I get duplicate track listing within
the same album, so you just play the album you get each track played
twice (FLAC then ALAC version), which is quite annoying.
I want to continue giving the SB3 the FLAC version if present, given its
native support.
Thanks,
Simon.
Best to simply have separate libraries for itunes and SB. Here's what I
do. Although I don't use ALAC (I use only mp3 or aac for my ipods,
etc.) you can simply do the same thing with your ALAC files as I do with
the mp3/aac files below.

FLAC rips of albums are in:

x:\music\flac\artist\album\tracks......

songs that I have in only MP3 or AAC, I put here:

x:\music\mp3aacONLY\artist\album\tracks....

Songs that are mp3 COPIES of FLAC files (or in your case ALAC copies of
FLAC files), I put in:

x:\mp3copy\artist\album\tracks....

OK. now everything is in correct directory. I use dbpoweramp to do a
batch conversion of all my FLAC files to mp3 (you could do the same to
batch convert all FLAC files to ALAC). It copies over all the tags and
artwork automatically. And on these mp3 copies I add a field to the tag
called %contentgroup% (which shows up as the field GROUPING in itunes).
In this field I have the text "COPY FROM FLAC".

In Logitech Media Server, I tell LMS that my music library is located in
x:\music, so this picks up all FLAC files and all the files that I only
have in mp3/aac.

In itunes I tell it that my music library is

x:\music\mp3aacONLY\

So it automatically picks up those files. Then in itunes I select FILE
x:\mp3copy\

This adds all those mp3 copies to my itunes library.

So now my itunes library has all my mp3/aac only files AND all my mp3
copies from FLAC. And my mp3 copies from Flac can be identified by
sorting on the GROUPING field. So if I decide I want to make new
versions of my mp3 copies (maybe a lower bit rate) I simply find these
in itunes, sort on GROUPING, delete those files from library (and tell
it also from harddrive). Now those files are gone and I can recreate
all the FLAC mp3 copies and readd to library.

If I create a bunch of new mp3 copies from my FLAC files, I simply do
the FILE > ADD FOLDER TO LIBRARY step again, selecting the x:\mp3copy\
directory. It will scan the entire directory, but only add the new files
to your ITUNES. It won't double count the files that are already there.

All this sounds very complicated, but in reality it is quite simple
(even with some other steps I left out that I also do related to adding
replaygain values, modifying SOUNDCHECK values, etc.) And when done I
have a LMS library with lossless files to the extent possible and I
separately have an itunes library with all lossy files for use with my
iphone/ipod/ipad. And I don't have duplicates in either the LMS or
iTUNES libraries. And note that I do NOT select the "integrate with
ITUNES" option in LMS. As from an LMS/ITUNES point of view I am NOT
integrating the two.
_


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simes_pep
2012-06-19 11:31:44 UTC
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Post by garym
Best to simply have separate libraries for itunes and SB. Here's what I
do. Although I don't use ALAC (I use only mp3 or aac for my ipods,
etc.) you can simply do the same thing with your ALAC files as I do with
the mp3/aac files below.
x:\music\flac\artist\album\tracks......
x:\music\mp3aacONLY\artist\album\tracks....
Songs that are mp3 COPIES of FLAC files (or in your case ALAC copies of
x:\mp3copy\artist\album\tracks....
OK. now everything is in correct directory. I use dbpoweramp to do a
batch conversion of all my FLAC files to mp3 (you could do the same to
batch convert all FLAC files to ALAC). It copies over all the tags and
artwork automatically. And on these mp3 copies I add a field to the tag
called %contentgroup% (which shows up as the field GROUPING in itunes).
In this field I have the text "COPY FROM FLAC".
In Logitech Media Server, I tell LMS that my music library is located in
x:\music, so this picks up all FLAC files and all the files that I only
have in mp3/aac.
In itunes I tell it that my music library is
x:\music\mp3aacONLY\
So it automatically picks up those files. Then in itunes I select FILE
x:\mp3copy\
This adds all those mp3 copies to my itunes library.
So now my itunes library has all my mp3/aac only files AND all my mp3
copies from FLAC. And my mp3 copies from Flac can be identified by
sorting on the GROUPING field. So if I decide I want to make new
versions of my mp3 copies (maybe a lower bit rate) I simply find these
in itunes, sort on GROUPING, delete those files from library (and tell
it also from harddrive). Now those files are gone and I can recreate
all the FLAC mp3 copies and readd to library.
If I create a bunch of new mp3 copies from my FLAC files, I simply do
the FILE > ADD FOLDER TO LIBRARY step again, selecting the x:\mp3copy\
directory. It will scan the entire directory, but only add the new files
to your ITUNES. It won't double count the files that are already there.
All this sounds very complicated, but in reality it is quite simple
(even with some other steps I left out that I also do related to adding
replaygain values, modifying SOUNDCHECK values, etc.) And when done I
have a LMS library with lossless files to the extent possible and I
separately have an itunes library with all lossy files for use with my
iphone/ipod/ipad. And I don't have duplicates in either the LMS or
iTUNES libraries. And note that I do NOT select the "integrate with
ITUNES" option in LMS. As from an LMS/ITUNES point of view I am NOT
integrating the two.
_
Ok, thanks for that.

At present I do use the LMS iTunes plug-in directed at \\iTunes
directory, with the FLAC files in \\media\music, however I could extract
the ALAC copies to a different directory say \\iTunes_only, and then get
LMS to scan \\media\music with a embedded link to \\iTunes but not
\\iTunes_only which can be added manually into iTunes, as you suggest.

Would need to ensure that the original iTunes content, which predated
LMS/SBS usage is probably tagged and Artwork present etc.

Ok, let me consider, as it will take a while to unpick the directories.
I was hoping there was a 'Duplicates Plug-in' that would apply some
meta-management to the libraries, as I am sure I am not alone in this
issue.

I also convert my FLAC into ALAC using dbPoweramp, but prefer to keep it
in ALAC, as some files move onto iDevices in ALAC, and for some I use
the auto-convert in iTunes to ACC.

Simon.


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garym
2012-06-19 11:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by simes_pep
Ok, thanks for that.
At present I do use the LMS iTunes plug-in directed at \\iTunes
directory, with the FLAC files in \\media\music, however I could extract
the ALAC copies to a different directory say \\iTunes_only, and then get
LMS to scan \\media\music with a embedded link to \\iTunes but not
\\iTunes_only which can be added manually into iTunes, as you suggest.
Would need to ensure that the original iTunes content, which predated
LMS/SBS usage is probably tagged and Artwork present etc.
Ok, let me consider, as it will take a while to unpick the directories.
I was hoping there was a 'Duplicates Plug-in' that would apply some
meta-management to the libraries, as I am sure I am not alone in this
issue.
I also convert my FLAC into ALAC using dbPoweramp, but prefer to keep it
in ALAC, as some files move onto iDevices in ALAC, and for some I use
the auto-convert in iTunes to ACC.
Simon.
yep, a "duplicates" plugin is often requested, but as far as I know, no
one has written one....


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Mnyb
2012-06-19 11:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by simes_pep
Ok, thanks for that.
At present I do use the LMS iTunes plug-in directed at \\iTunes
directory, with the FLAC files in \\media\music, however I could extract
the ALAC copies to a different directory say \\iTunes_only, and then get
LMS to scan \\media\music with a embedded link to \\iTunes but not
\\iTunes_only which can be added manually into iTunes, as you suggest.
Would need to ensure that the original iTunes content, which predated
LMS/SBS usage is probably tagged and Artwork present etc.
Ok, let me consider, as it will take a while to unpick the directories.
I was hoping there was a 'Duplicates Plug-in' that would apply some
meta-management to the libraries, as I am sure I am not alone in this
issue.
I also convert my FLAC into ALAC using dbPoweramp, but prefer to keep it
in ALAC, as some files move onto iDevices in ALAC, and for some I use
the auto-convert in iTunes to ACC.
Simon.
Probably not alone , the problem looks simple from the surface , but if
you think about it "what is a duplicate" ,you can probably define one
use case . But otherwise endless possibilities for bugs .
For example having the same album in different releases with maybe only
a comment tag as differentiator .

And the fact that tagging schemes for different formats may not be
exactly equivalent artist or album artist ? or what ? also LMS internal
representation of data of the music is not the tags but something
reduced from the tags .

Could be an endless support issue this feature .

Definitely not alone , I think this questions pops up around every month
on this forum .


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garym
2012-06-19 11:46:52 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
Probably not alone , the problem looks simple from the surface , but if
you think about it "what is a duplicate" ,you can probably define one
use case . But otherwise endless possibilities for bugs .
For example having the same album in different releases with maybe only
a comment tag as differentiator .
And the fact that tagging schemes for different formats may not be
exactly equivalent artist or album artist ? or what ? also LMS internal
representation of data of the music is not the tags but something
reduced from the tags .
Could be an endless support issue this feature .
Definitely not alone , I think this questions pops up around every month
on this forum .
yep, all good points and difficult issues. For example, I have Beatles,
original release CDs, Mono box set, Stereo box set. Duplicate finder
would have to distinguish between, say, Rubber Soul, across all three
versions. Obviously, not impossible (as I use tags to distinguish
myself, adding [MONO] or [Stereo] to end of album name....


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Mnyb
2012-06-19 11:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by garym
yep, all good points and difficult issues. For example, I have Beatles,
original release CDs, Mono box set, Stereo box set. Duplicate finder
would have to distinguish between, say, Rubber Soul, across all three
versions. Obviously, not impossible (as I use tags to distinguish
myself, adding [MONO] or [Stereo] to end of album name....
Yes but that's your tagging scheme :) I think it's fair to say that no
ones doing these thing the same way around here .

I also have an unfounded suspicion that the folks that have a mixed
content collection a bit haphazardly sorted is not the guys/gals that
are meticulous taggers with perfect tags either .
Such feature may bug out completely exactly for those who wants it ?


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garym
2012-06-19 12:00:15 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
Yes but that's your tagging scheme :) I think it's fair to say that no
ones doing these thing the same way around here .
I also have an unfounded suspicion that the folks that have a mixed
content collection a bit haphazardly sorted is not the guys/gals that
are meticulous taggers with perfect tags either .
Such feature may bug out completely exactly for those who wants it ?
Edit. I think some of my stuff would be hit to , when I begun this
journey to streaming music i did not know any good tagging practices .
I do have some flac/id3v1 tagging in some old files for example ( the
still work rigth now ,the information is not conflicting or incomplete )
agree 100%


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simes_pep
2012-06-19 18:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by garym
agree 100%
But if the details are exactly the same - Album title, Artist, Album
Artist, etc. and only the file format is different (e.g. ALAC, ACC or
mp3) then could LMS preference the FLAC version, particularly if the bit
rate and sampling frequency of the FLAC and ALAC were the same as well?

Thanks,
Simon.


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garym
2012-06-19 19:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by simes_pep
But if the details are exactly the same - Album title, Artist, Album
Artist, etc. and only the file format is different (e.g. ALAC, ACC or
mp3) then could LMS preference the FLAC version, particularly if the bit
rate and sampling frequency of the FLAC and ALAC were the same as well?
Thanks,
Simon.
anything is possible of course, but there is no existing plugin or other
function that does this in LMS (that I know of, and this question comes
up about once a month for the last few years)


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aubuti
2012-06-19 19:26:54 UTC
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Post by simes_pep
But if the details are exactly the same - Album title, Artist, Album
Artist, etc. and only the file format is different (e.g. ALAC, ACC or
mp3) then could LMS preference the FLAC version, particularly if the bit
rate and sampling frequency of the FLAC and ALAC were the same as well?
One problem is the naming used for different tags. In the ID3v2 tag spec
(see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID3) the tags aren't
called Album, Album Artist, etc. They are called things like TALB, TPE1,
etc. And the mappings used from ID3v2 to Vorbis Comments (FLAC) and
other tagging schemes are subject to interpretation.

It's not to say that it couldn't be done, but it does mean that even
establishing that "...the details are exactly the same..." is not a
trivial matter, especially if one is talking about writing a plugin or
tool for public consumption, where all kinds of practices, kludges, and
"de facto standards" may be encountered even within a single music
library.


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stereoptic
2012-07-05 22:30:17 UTC
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I recently purchased the 96/24 .wav files for George Harrison's All
Things Must Pass. I used dbpoweramp to convert them to .flac and then
added all of my tags and copied over to my "high resolution" folder that
is read by the Squeezebox Touch. Then I realized that I didn't convert
to flac, I never changed the pull down setting on dbpoweramp so they
converted to Apple Lossless by mistake. The files are still 96/24, but
since they are not in my standard iTunes directory, how is the SBT
'reading' these? Is there any difference between a 96/24 flac and a
96/24 Apple Lossless file to the SBT?


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aubuti
2012-07-06 00:45:47 UTC
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Is there any difference between a 96/24 flac and a 96/24 Apple Lossless
file to the SBT?
The difference is that the SBT can decode the FLAC natively, whereas the
Apple Lossless has to be transcoded by Logitech Media Server. I believe
that under the default settings, LMS transcodes Apple Lossless to FLAC
and sends that to the Touch. Other than that, lossless is lossless.


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stereoptic
2012-07-06 01:15:34 UTC
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Post by aubuti
The difference is that the SBT can decode the FLAC natively, whereas the
Apple Lossless has to be transcoded by Logitech Media Server. I believe
that under the default settings, LMS transcodes Apple Lossless to FLAC
and sends that to the Touch. Other than that, lossless is lossless.
EDIT: Who is selling 96/24 of ATMP? My only copy is MP3, so if they
don't gouge too much for the hi-res I may consider it.
Thanks for the answer! You can buy the 96/24 .wav files at
georgeharrison.com in the store tab. $30. Best sounding digital
version. From the master tapes - forgives all of the sins of the 2001
remaster!


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